IN CONVERSATION WITH KIM TAYLOR-FOSTER & EMILY BOOTH

Film podcasts are a dime a dozen and horror film podcasts may be even more prevalent than that, but horror actress and broadcaster Emily Booth has teamed up with film journalist and author Kim Taylor-Foster to bring something a little different to the field with KIM & EM VS EVIL. While not exclusive to the horror genre, the podcast primarily looks at what makes the more antagonistic characters of cinema truly tick. Kicking off with JAWS, the two self-proclaimed fangirls uncover some surprising insights into what makes the great white shark such a fascinating and perhaps misunderstood villain. With future episodes looking into such films as HELLRAISER and FATAL ATTRACTION among others, the series promises a fun and illuminating deep dive into why we are so fascinated with our favourite boogeymen (and women).  Gore In The Store chatted with the two hosts ahead of the release of their second episode to discuss, among other things, the roots of the podcast, their own favourite villains and what makes them so fascinating.

GORE IN THE STORE - How did you come up with the idea for tackling this particular subject in this way, and who approached who?

EMILY BOOTH - It's quite a lovely story, I think. We both live in the same town where Kim runs a super cool cafe and a vinyl store. I went in, and we very, very quickly realized we were massive fan girls of the genre and we also both worked in the genre.  So literally after about two conversations, I was in a funny mood, I think I said, we should do podcasts together. And about a year later, we finally got it together to do it. However, the big question was, well, what can it be about, because there's so many podcasts out there, we're competing with a lot, and so we had to find an angle. And I think Kim was actually the one who came up with the villainy angle, does that sound about right? 

KIM TAYLOR-FOSTER - Yeah, it does. When you suggested doing a podcast together, I thought that as well. We just had this instant connection really didn't we? We started talking, and we didn't stop. And we both went, we should do something together, we should do something with this. We were trying to hone in on an angle, and we landed on villains because it allows us to break out of horror sometimes because we're both interested in wider cinema, but I think we're going to confine ourselves to genre films. So that means, you know, thriller, sci-fi or comic book movies.

What attracts you to the horror genre in particular?

EB - Again, I'm not going to speak for Kim, but I know that we are both kind of addicts from childhood, really. My theory on horror, and you can enter the the genre at any time, of course you can, but in my experience talking to fans and filmmakers alike, I do think that to be a real, true fan, where it gets you right there in your heart and soul, you have to have been exposed to it at an inappropriate age. And that was my experience. I put it down to having an older brother, he was the one who was able to go out when I was only 11 or 12 and he was 15 or 16, and able to rent videos down at the video store. So that was the video nasty era. That's the era I grew up in. So my horror cherry was popped when I was quite young, and it just didn't go away. Because I think especially when you become a teenager, and you start watching key films that tap into various changes that you're going through as a woman or a teenager it just stays with you. And I love horror for that reason, but also I think it speaks so much about social commentary, which is massive in horror. I just find horror massively interesting. I've always loved the human psyche, dreams, horror, sex, so yeah, I'm just a natural fan, really.

KT-F - It's similar in that I got into it very young. Some of my earliest screen memories are from watching horror, one of the first, and still, one of my favorite films I've ever seen is XTRO, which is a sci-fi horror. That made a huge impression on me. I also had an older brother and parents who were permissive. They would get us videos out from the video shop from a very young age, whatever we wanted. So we'd pick all the horror stuff. But when I think about what it is about horror that appealed to me, I often say that I think it's partly to do with the women protagonists. I know that we sometimes talk about women being portrayed questionably in horror being exploited or whatever, but for me, I saw, particularly in those slasher films where you have a final girl, women doing something on screen that didn't revolve around having a boyfriend. They had agency. They were strong. They would defeat the killer. In the case of Laurie Strode in HALLOWEEN, she was clever, bookish, and I identified with stuff like that. And also, like Emily said, I love horror because it does delve into social commentary and the human psyche. I find horror can explore stuff that no other genre can. I find that really interesting.

Do you think that the horror genre has more sympathetic villains/antagonists, than any other genre?

EB - This is something we want to delve into. We do want to look at, which is possibly more Kim's area, the world of Marvel as well. Because villains have quite consciously, we feel, had quite a sort of evolutionary change in that we all now want to see villains that are three dimensional. Everyone has evolved, haven't they? Female characters have had to evolve and become three dimensional, and now villains have had to evolve. And it isn't just black and white. We want to see empathy. We want to see their empathetic side, and why they are the villain. I mean, you can see it even in Disney now with CRUELLA, MALEFICENT, where they're doing these sort of origin stories where they’re not born a villain,  they become a villain. I mean, gosh, talking about social commentary, you could apply that to real life, you know? 

KT-F - I think it probably does have a lot more interesting villains, generally, or complex villains. When we're choosing the films that we want to talk about, and when we're stepping outside of horror, and talking about comic book movies, there aren't a huge number of complex villains to talk about, particularly in Marvel. Marvel has the villain problem, where they just keep presenting two dimensional villains. They have tried to address it and there are some exceptions, and I think we will address some of those when we go forward. DC has a better villain roster, I think, we've been talking about maybe doing some of the Batman films and I think we can get some good mileage out of that. But with Kim & Em Vs Evil, what we're looking for when we're looking at these films, is not just the main antagonist and what they are doing or representing, but also the root of evil in the film. If a location can be a main character, so can maybe a theme. With JAWS, we talked about capitalism being potentially partly to blame for what unfolds, and therefore the root of evil. So yes, I think horror, as I said before, is able to often explore the depths of the human psyche and social issues better than other genres and that is good for us exploring evil.

EB - You can go down so many roads, can't you? You've got supernatural evil, religious forms of evil and evil, that's just domestic. So when we do HELLRAISER, there's very obvious evil that you see right there. But when you start to dig through and peel the onion layers back, maybe the forces of evil are not really the Cenobites. They're just judges. The evil is in humanity. The evil is in desire. The evil is in the crumbling family unit, the boredom of domestic life, suburbia. So Kim and I are very interested in scraping back and looking at themes that I'm not saying have never been said before, but we do hope to, in a fun way, illuminate some lesser talked about themes in some of the films. For example, we also do FATAL ATTRACTION, which is a sort of a thriller cum horror, maybe. So we are kind of broadening our movie database.

You mentioned JAWS there, and it's quite interesting that you chose a film that's been talked about so much for your first episode but you come up with some really surprising insights, regarding the whole capitalism theme you mentioned and more. Have there been any films that surprised yourselves in a similar way which you revisited for the podcast? Where you were surprised to discover something in them that you never saw before?

KT-F - Emily uncovered something when we were doing FATAL ATTRACTION, in the context of the time in which that film came out. I didn't know about this marriage survey they did. What was it called? Marriage Crunch in Time Magazine?

EB - The Marriage Crunch in Time Magazine! Yeah, obviously we know a certain amount about films, I've done what I've done and Kim's done loads of journalism and written books. But each time you do a deep dive, you do learn something new. And then you do a re-watch from your current position in life, and you start to see things in a different way. And absolutely, I saw FATAL ATTRACTION in a very different way when re-watching and researching it and learning of the backlash of feminism that was going on in America, that was new to me.

KT-F - It's really interesting when you talk about looking back at things through today's lens and through the experiences that we have had in the time that we first watched FATAL ATTRACTION, when it first came out to now. You look back at a character like Alex Forrester (Glenn Close), and I don't want to spoil the podcast episode, far more sympathetically. I mean, when I first watched that film, yes, I was a kid, but it was much more black and white for me. You know, she was bad, he was also bad, but ultimately, she was unhinged. But when I say unhinged as an adult, she had mental health issues, but you didn’t think about that, or I didn't think about that when I first watched it as a kid. Nowadays, everybody's far more aware, and you look at her in a completely different context. And if you also watch the original ending, which is out there available to see again, that kind of reframes what you think about.

How long do you think you could do the podcast for?

KT-F - I mean, it can go on indefinitely. There are so many films and great sources of evil on screen. I think as long as we've got the time and the desire to keep doing it, I think we can go on for forever!

EB - We do want to be aware of what people are sort of interested in and hungry for, because we all know there are a lot of film podcasts out there. It's funny, because since doing this podcast, with the internet and the algorithm, I'm now getting all these weird true crime and serial killing things landing in my Facebook and Instagram feeds. And I'm finding myself becoming fascinated with subjects like that, it's probably been coined already, but I’m going to call it monetizing murder. For example, it's been huge, hasn't it? MONSTER on Netflix, the Ed Gein story. Oh my gosh, the fascination with serial killers, what makes them tick, and why do we want to watch them? And do we secretly admire them, and are they some sort of reflection on us? I'm starting to really enjoy deep diving into other areas. I mean, for me, I would love to do a special on the villain in general. Like, why do we like villains? Kim was telling me that when she worked at Fandom, the villain was far more popular than the hero. I love looking into why we love the baddie.

Do you think that there's any antagonist, villain, monster, that is simply irredeemable, with no redeemable qualities whatsoever, that you'd like to cover?

EB - Ha-ha! That's a good one. Michael Myers is a bit irredeemable, isn't he? 

KT-F - No, he's got mental health issues! Also, he's fun, you know! (Laughs)

EB - Oh, you’ve got us stumped now! Because we think villains are redeemable!

KT-F - Yeah, that's the trouble! I was close to calling Jaws irredeemable for killing that dog! I don't know. What about Freddy Krueger?

EB - No, he was burnt alive for what he did! Jesus!

KT-F - Yeah, he wasn't very nice before that, that’s true.

EB - Our podcast is better than this! (Laughs)

KT-F - I mean, there are films like torture porn films. I'm thinking of the AUGUST UNDERGROUND trilogy and the antagonist in that. I don't know if you've seen those films, they're basically found footage films of a couple of guys torturing people. There's no redemption for those guys. I wouldn't recommend watching them. They are hard watches those films!

EB - When Kim and I choose films, we try to choose films where there is ambiguity and a case so it's not like one of us will say the villain is just a villain, and one of us will say the villain is a victim. But sometimes we sort of straddle that seesaw, if that makes sense. For example, in JAWS, I was probably more vying for the shark, and Kim was saying, No, it's fucking evil, just get over it! And I'm like, no, what about, you know, the evil hunters! So yeah, there are some episodes where we kind of take a bit of a side, but the films that we choose to discuss tend to be films where the villain is interesting. We also will be starting at some point, a Patreon where we want people to vote on the podcast for the film that we will cover because it's only as good as what people want to hear about, which is an interesting discussion. So maybe the new Frankenstein next, right? Because there's already lots of angles and social commentary on that.

Do either of you have a favourite villain?

EB - I’ve got loads!

KT-F - Because it was an early franchise that I got into as a kid, I'm going to say Jason Voorhees. (We've got FRIDAY THE 13TH coming up.) But also Pazuzu. I think we'll do THE EXORCIST at some point, we haven't planned it in yet, but I imagine we will, because there's lots of cool things to say about that.

EB - The thing is that sometimes my favorite villains aren't typical. Because I'm such an animal lover, I actually do like the Xenomorph and l kind of admire these perfect, pure killing machines. The humans are the ones that are annoying little ants that get in the way. Could you cover the Xenomorph? There's a tiny moment in ALIEN RESURRECTION, where you empathize with the Xenomorph when it's being experimented on, and the human scientists are trying to control it. The thing is, when we do these old classic films, there's so many interesting stories, and there's so much trivia, like how it was made and what went wrong and what was expected of the actors and how much of a wanker was that director. There's so many stories, especially with JAWS, so it's very difficult not to touch on those, because we love them. So Kim and I are trying to touch on them for sure, but we are trying to keep it focused on where the evil is and what it is saying about us. 

And do you have a protagonist that you just can’t help but hate?

EB - That's tricky. For some reason I've been looking at CARRIE recently. You know how some protagonists become antagonists? They kind of go between both. The mum in that is so harmful to that poor girl. It's very emotional. I think we should cover it because watching it as a teenage girl is tough, and then watching it as a mother is even tougher.

KT-F - I remember as a kid, and I don't know if I feel this way now, I'm a bit more sympathetic and a bit more feminist and a bit more aware of the patriarchy than I was as a kid, but I really used to hate Shelly Duval in THE SHINING. I used to really think ”I'm not surprised you wound him up so much. I'm not surprised he turned out the way he did!”  She was so whiny and annoying! I don't feel that way now, but I used to really, really hate her in THE SHINING. (Laughs)

Well, thank you both very much for your time. I really enjoyed the podcast and I'm looking forward to your thoughts on HELLRAISER.

EB - Well, look.. We are women. There will be tangents. So we will talk about something, and then we start talking about buttock thrusts.

KT-F - That's relevant, that's in context! There were buttock thrusts in HELLRAISER!

EB - It is very relevant! As Kim points out, in HELLRAISER, there were contractual things about buttock thrusts, like you can only have three buttock thrusts!

KT-F - No, two! You can only have two. You can't have three!

EB - Sorry, yeah. Three is disgusting. Two's great! Tune in and you'll find out all about the buttock thrusts.

Iain MacLeod

KIM & EM VS EVIL's first two episodes are available now to download,

with future episodes available up to every two weeks.